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android 2.1 update

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Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

vita10gy wrote:

Swing and a miss! That's not what my post says, even a little. I'm not even sure how you got to there from my post. I never said anything about vanilla phones, and them not installing anything on it, and you having to do everything to get anything. All I said was, for example, HTC's weather widget should be updatable via the market, not that it not be installed period. We should get updates to the OS if they find a way to cut battery drain while talking on the phone, speeding up searches in the dialer should be an app update. We shouldn't have to wait around for an OS update roll up a few fixes trival bugs in individual apps/widgets when there's already a way to update things that don't change the kernal, api, or core functionality of the phone.

Every update already requires some user input, so I'm not sure what your point was there. If anything this would be easier because one of the things they could fix via this would be the alerts we're supposed to be getting when there's an app to update.

Sorry, I took "As far as I see it virtually everything, and certainly everything HTC gave us on sense, should just be an app we can individually update." to mean that you were saying that it should be an app to install or not. I see now that wasn't your intent.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

That is one of the reasons why the Nexus One is so ground breaking. You may run the phone on a given carrier, but all updates come from Google, so there's no waiting on Sprint to vet the OS. This is also the reason why the N1 uses a plain version of Android. There's no third party development process to worry about.

Though the Sense UI is outstanding, I went with a Moment because of it's base Android. In theory, it should get updates to Android much quicker. That theory however, is thrown out the window when you cook in non-standard apps. So even with a basic 1.5 installed, it's still a customize ROM and that's why we have to wait on Sprint. But...even if they didnt include these apps, it's still a custom ROM because Android originally didnt support CDMA networks. It was added in by the carriers and therefore it's still a custom ROM and therefore the wait.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Savage wrote:

Kaze wrote:

In my (not so) humble opinion, there is a distinct difference between a magazine (content) and a phone (device).  I would not tollerate my microwave, vaccum cleaner, computer, or any other device I own to have "advertisement software" that I could not remove.  To me, comparing magazines and cell phones is like apples and oranges.  Where a magazine has paid advertisements, you can stop the subscription to the magazine.  Some Android applications have advertisements, however these can be removed.  The applications in the ROM, however, should not be in the ROM as some people may want that extra 0.5-1Mb of space for their phones (and there are quite a few Android power users who do want that space).

In my particular case, I do not wish to "root" the phone, as I don't want to inadvertantly befoul the operating system.  Being a Sr. Systems Admin, I do everything I can to *avoid* root access to my servers at work, and don't even run my laptop with administrative permissions, so why would I want to run my phone as root?  That just opens up a whole can of worms, and that genie is not easy to put back in the bottle when the phone's been compromised.  As such, what I feel is the best answer is to, (a) install the applications as part of an OEM "first boot" script, or (b) provide the applications as downloads.

Ok, fair enough. How about this, then? That GM car someone just bought? It's a device, right? The stock radio? Does it have the capability to subscribe to XM/Sirius radio? Yup. Does everyone want this service? Nope. Does everyone who buys the car get it, whether they want it or not? Yup. Do people throw conniptions at their Chevy dealer, trying to get that stock radio removed, or a credit for a "feature" that is, in effect, an advertisement for something that they'll never use?

I doubt it.

Don't even get me started on the OnStar button. It's there, staring you in the face every time you start your car. You can't remove it, but you can't use it either, unless you pay for it (ok, except in an emergency).

There are lots and lots of examples like this, where something that you don't want or need is being foisted on you, at your expense. For some reason, computers and cell phones get people all worked up. Needlessly it seems to me. It's just not that big of a deal.



If GM owners weren't allowed to replace their stock stereo with a better head unit because you weren't allow to remove the XM/Sirius feature you never use, people would complain.

The crux of your argument seems to be two fold:

1) We have to deal with these apps because sprint gets paid to have them, and if they weren't there we'd pay more.

2) They aren't hurting anything, just ignore them.

1) Almost assuredly false. The only app this could possibly be true for is the NASCAR app, and I doubt it. The other apps. (Nav, NFL, etc) all cost sprint money.It's certainly the case that there's NO WAY NASCAR, or even the commercials that get slipped in to Sprint TV, make sprint enough to have any noticable impact on your bill, which is the logical extention of this argument. If you think nascar is subsidizing every users' monthly bill in order to have the app on there, you're crazy.

2) This might be truish someday, you still would have to see then in your app drawer, but could ignore them easy enough. However, there is fairly limited space on these current phones. I don't have that many apps, and I've already had to uninstall a few I don't use a lot to make room for others. For lots of people, you can't have an app you'd actually use on your phone because the NASCAR app is on there. It's not the end of the world, no, but it should be removable. However, like I said, this isn't a reason to be upset at sprint. It's not removable because of the shortsigheted approach by the people who made android.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

HunterA3 wrote:

That is one of the reasons why the Nexus One is so ground breaking. You may run the phone on a given carrier, but all updates come from Google, so there's no waiting on Sprint to vet the OS. This is also the reason why the N1 uses a plain version of Android. There's no third party development process to worry about.

Though the Sense UI is outstanding, I went with a Moment because of it's base Android. In theory, it should get updates to Android much quicker. That theory however, is thrown out the window when you cook in non-standard apps. So even with a basic 1.5 installed, it's still a customize ROM and that's why we have to wait on Sprint. But...even if they didnt include these apps, it's still a custom ROM because Android originally didnt support CDMA networks. It was added in by the carriers and therefore it's still a custom ROM and therefore the wait.

True, but it could also be one of the reasons that the N1 isn't selling at quite the clip Google had hoped. For good or bad, there are a lot of consumers out there who equate Android with the HTC Sense UI. I think it's going to be hard to break that assumption for the average consumer. They're going to want those flashy looking interfaces (marketing, baby), and I suspect that we really won't ever see too many stock Android phones. Hopefully the in house app developers will get more adept with the OS as it matures, and the turn around times for updates and enhancements will shorten.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Savage wrote:

Ok, fair enough. How about this, then? That GM car someone just bought? It's a device, right? The stock radio? Does it have the capability to subscribe to XM/Sirius radio? Yup. Does everyone want this service? Nope. Does everyone who buys the car get it, whether they want it or not? Yup. Do people throw conniptions at their Chevy dealer, trying to get that stock radio removed, or a credit for a "feature" that is, in effect, an advertisement for something that they'll never use?

I doubt it.

Don't even get me started on the OnStar button. It's there, staring you in the face every time you start your car. You can't remove it, but you can't use it either, unless you pay for it (ok, except in an emergency).

There are lots and lots of examples like this, where something that you don't want or need is being foisted on you, at your expense. For some reason, computers and cell phones get people all worked up. Needlessly it seems to me. It's just not that big of a deal.

GM car is also apples to oranges.  Radio: It can be (very easily) replaced with out the "user" (owner, in this case) knowing how.  They take it to the local Fry's, Best Buy, Car Toys, or any number of car audio places, pick out a radio, pay $x and hand them the keys to replace it.  OnStar?  That can be removed as well.  Just remove the cross-connects between the OnStar box and the ECU, change the mirror, and remove the OnStar box.  It's gone.

Also, the NFL application and NASCAR application are not paid for by those organizations to be on the phone.  In fact, I do believe that it is Sprint paying those two entities for the privilage of placing those applications on the phone.  Thus, Sprint would likely not have to pay as much for those of us who do not wish to have those applications, which would overall help them to cut costs.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

vita10gy wrote:

If GM owners weren't allowed to replace their stock stereo with a better head unit because you weren't allow to remove the XM/Sirius feature you never use, people would complain.

The crux of your argument seems to be two fold:

1) We have to deal with these apps because sprint gets paid to have them, and if they weren't there we'd pay more.

2) They aren't hurting anything, just ignore them.

1) Almost assuredly false. The only app this could possibly be true for is the NASCAR app, and I doubt it. The other apps. (Nav, NFL, etc) all cost sprint money.It's certainly the case that there's NO WAY NASCAR, or even the commercials that get slipped in to Sprint TV, make sprint enough to have any noticable impact on your bill, which is the logical extention of this argument. If you think nascar is subsidizing every users' monthly bill in order to have the app on there, you're crazy.

2) This might be truish someday, you still would have to see then in your app drawer, but could ignore them easy enough. However, there is fairly limited space on these current phones. I don't have that many apps, and I've already had to uninstall a few I don't use a lot to make room for others. For lots of people, you can't have an app you'd actually use on your phone because the NASCAR app is on there. It's not the end of the world, no, but it should be removable. However, like I said, this isn't a reason to be upset at sprint. It's not removable because of the shortsigheted approach by the people who made android.

That's just it though. Hero owners are allowed to replace their "stock" with a "better" ROM if they choose. But, just like not every car owner replaces their stock stereo (and doesn't complain), I don't understand why the Hero users who don't replace their stock ROM complain about this quite so much.

As to your item 1 being false, I'm not saying that Sprint is necessarily paid directly by any entity behind an app (NFL, NASCAR, whoever), but that they are perceived by Sprint to be a value-added component on their phones, That is, by including the apps with the phones, Sprint calculates that they sell more phones than without the apps. Otherwise, if not competitive, what reason would Sprint have to include them at all? Clearly, Sprint feels that they make more money including the apps than excluding them. (And, I suspect, they're probably right, because they're still including them). So, yes, in that sense, it is revenue for Sprint. Is it big enough to make an impact on my bill? No clue. But, if you don't think Sprint at least thinks there is a financial benefit to them by including them on the phones, then I'm not the only crazy one here.

As to 2, I'm not convinced that there are really that many people who can't add an application to their phone because the NASCAR app is burned into ROM. Not saying there aren't ANY people, just saying that I don't think there are sufficient numbers to warrant such an outcry.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Savage wrote:

That's just it though. Hero owners are allowed to replace their "stock" with a "better" ROM if they choose. But, just like not every car owner replaces their stock stereo (and doesn't complain), I don't understand why the Hero users who don't replace their stock ROM complain about this quite so much.

As to your item 1 being false, I'm not saying that Sprint is necessarily paid directly by any entity behind an app (NFL, NASCAR, whoever), but that they are perceived by Sprint to be a value-added component on their phones, That is, by including the apps with the phones, Sprint calculates that they sell more phones than without the apps. Otherwise, if not competitive, what reason would Sprint have to include them at all? Clearly, Sprint feels that they make more money including the apps than excluding them. (And, I suspect, they're probably right, because they're still including them). So, yes, in that sense, it is revenue for Sprint. Is it big enough to make an impact on my bill? No clue. But, if you don't think Sprint at least thinks there is a financial benefit to them by including them on the phones, then I'm not the only crazy one here.

As to 2, I'm not convinced that there are really that many people who can't add an application to their phone because the NASCAR app is burned into ROM. Not saying there aren't ANY people, just saying that I don't think there are sufficient numbers to warrant such an outcry.

Oh?  And where do you get ROMs for the HTC Hero or Samsung Moment that have the Gmail, Google Calandar, and related integrations?

Message was edited by: Kaze - Added second phone to the list.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Kaze wrote:

GM car is also apples to oranges.  Radio: It can be (very easily) replaced with out the "user" (owner, in this case) knowing how.  They take it to the local Fry's, Best Buy, Car Toys, or any number of car audio places, pick out a radio, pay $x and hand them the keys to replace it.  OnStar?  That can be removed as well.  Just remove the cross-connects between the OnStar box and the ECU, change the mirror, and remove the OnStar box.  It's gone.

Also, the NFL application and NASCAR application are not paid for by those organizations to be on the phone.  In fact, I do believe that it is Sprint paying those two entities for the privilage of placing those applications on the phone.  Thus, Sprint would likely not have to pay as much for those of us who do not wish to have those applications, which would overall help them to cut costs.

Um, is that really simpler than rooting your phone to remove the NASCAR app? Not to mention that rooting doesn't cost anything extra.

Why wouldn't you be as, or more, upset with the car manufacturer than you are with Sprint/HTC?

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

I think the biggest reason for the N1's lack of sales is the fact that when it arrived, it was limited to a $529 unlocked phone that could run on T-Mo, or a $199 that could run on T-Mo. There were no other US carriers that could run it. I believe that is one of the primary motivations of Google in finally letting the N1 run on the GSM frequencies that AT&T uses. Prior to that, it only worked on T-Mobiles 3G GSM frequencies.I doubt it had little to do with lack of Sence, Motoblur, or other eye candy.

However, now that we've got the N1 coming to all four carriers, it will be a good measure of the phone's success. To claim it a failure before it has a chance to be sold on all carriers is premature in my opinion. Though I must admit, any potential sales on any of the carriers may be tempered by the arrival of newer phones by HTC and others that have similar, if not better, specs.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Kaze wrote:

Oh?  And where do you get ROMs for the HTC Hero or Samsung Moment that have the Gmail, Google Calandar, and related integrations?

Message was edited by: Kaze - Added second phone to the list.

Not sure what you're asking, but plenty of (all?) custom ROMs have those features/related integrations. MoDaCo for instance.

Apologies if that's not what you meant.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Savage wrote:

Um, is that really simpler than rooting your phone to remove the NASCAR app? Not to mention that rooting doesn't cost anything extra.

Why wouldn't you be as, or more, upset with the car manufacturer than you are with Sprint/HTC?

The thing is that there are people who can do that for you (for a price).  Rooting the phone, on the otherhand, you are completely on your own, and possibly void your warranty.  You void the radio warranty when you make that change on the car, however (if properly done) you do not affect the warranty on any other part of the car when you remove it.

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Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Savage wrote:

Kaze wrote:

In my (not so) humble opinion, there is a distinct difference between a magazine (content) and a phone (device).  I would not tollerate my microwave, vaccum cleaner, computer, or any other device I own to have "advertisement software" that I could not remove.  To me, comparing magazines and cell phones is like apples and oranges.  Where a magazine has paid advertisements, you can stop the subscription to the magazine.  Some Android applications have advertisements, however these can be removed.  The applications in the ROM, however, should not be in the ROM as some people may want that extra 0.5-1Mb of space for their phones (and there are quite a few Android power users who do want that space).

In my particular case, I do not wish to "root" the phone, as I don't want to inadvertantly befoul the operating system.  Being a Sr. Systems Admin, I do everything I can to *avoid* root access to my servers at work, and don't even run my laptop with administrative permissions, so why would I want to run my phone as root?  That just opens up a whole can of worms, and that genie is not easy to put back in the bottle when the phone's been compromised.  As such, what I feel is the best answer is to, (a) install the applications as part of an OEM "first boot" script, or (b) provide the applications as downloads.

Ok, fair enough. How about this, then? That GM car someone just bought? It's a device, right? The stock radio? Does it have the capability to subscribe to XM/Sirius radio? Yup. Does everyone want this service? Nope. Does everyone who buys the car get it, whether they want it or not? Yup. Do people throw conniptions at their Chevy dealer, trying to get that stock radio removed, or a credit for a "feature" that is, in effect, an advertisement for something that they'll never use?

I doubt it.

Don't even get me started on the OnStar button. It's there, staring you in the face every time you start your car. You can't remove it, but you can't use it either, unless you pay for it (ok, except in an emergency).

There are lots and lots of examples like this, where something that you don't want or need is being foisted on you, at your expense. For some reason, computers and cell phones get people all worked up. Needlessly it seems to me. It's just not that big of a deal.



If the stock radio was not changeable, or if by changing it that would void the vehicle warranty like rooting does, or it caused hits to the cars performance as it turns itself on without user intent and uses limited resources like these apps do, or it came on every time you started your car like these apps do and used said limited resources, I guarantee there would be outrage and conniptions.

This is why people get worked up with this junk on computers and cell phones and not cars etc. If Dell wants to add the AOL icon to the desktop fine. If they cut a deal with AOL and it makes the computer cheaper fine. If it turns on or pops up every time I boot my computer, if it runs in the background and slows down my computer and I can't change this or if I could never uninstall the stuff without voiding my warranty I'd not like that.  I've built PC's with the same specs, and some times less, as my buddies Dell's. The performance difference is tremendous. The free Norton, Dell utilities, AOL, Spy watch etc. etc. tend to slow his computer to a crawl. And he has a nice set up...on paper anyway. He paid for performance that he isn't getting. And he has no idea how to remove all of that stuff. He comes to me. Though in the last couple of years Dell's have gotten better at this being a simple uninstall. Before that, stuff like realnetworks and Norton were almost impossible to get off of your system once it was on. I'm a Mac guy for this very reason. I'll also be a Nexus One guy when it drops for Sprint for the same reasons.

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