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android 2.1 update

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Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

You like having freedom and lots of options....so you're a mac guy? Does not compute.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

It seems rather counterintuitive to think that Apple computers lack choice. If you look at their lockdown of hardware and the Mac OS, you would be correct. But if you consider that you can run Mac OS, Windows, and Linux on the same machine, you begin to see the reason why they say it provides choice.


I will agree though that Mac OS X and iPhone OS are very much a walled garden systems though and your choices are often made for you. I can say that with some authority as I am a mac owner as well.

Message was edited by: HunterA3

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Savage wrote:

vita10gy wrote:

If GM owners weren't allowed to replace their stock stereo with a better head unit because you weren't allow to remove the XM/Sirius feature you never use, people would complain.

The crux of your argument seems to be two fold:

1) We have to deal with these apps because sprint gets paid to have them, and if they weren't there we'd pay more.

2) They aren't hurting anything, just ignore them.

1) Almost assuredly false. The only app this could possibly be true for is the NASCAR app, and I doubt it. The other apps. (Nav, NFL, etc) all cost sprint money.It's certainly the case that there's NO WAY NASCAR, or even the commercials that get slipped in to Sprint TV, make sprint enough to have any noticable impact on your bill, which is the logical extention of this argument. If you think nascar is subsidizing every users' monthly bill in order to have the app on there, you're crazy.

2) This might be truish someday, you still would have to see then in your app drawer, but could ignore them easy enough. However, there is fairly limited space on these current phones. I don't have that many apps, and I've already had to uninstall a few I don't use a lot to make room for others. For lots of people, you can't have an app you'd actually use on your phone because the NASCAR app is on there. It's not the end of the world, no, but it should be removable. However, like I said, this isn't a reason to be upset at sprint. It's not removable because of the shortsigheted approach by the people who made android.

That's just it though. Hero owners are allowed to replace their "stock" with a "better" ROM if they choose. But, just like not every car owner replaces their stock stereo (and doesn't complain), I don't understand why the Hero users who don't replace their stock ROM complain about this quite so much.

As to your item 1 being false, I'm not saying that Sprint is necessarily paid directly by any entity behind an app (NFL, NASCAR, whoever), but that they are perceived by Sprint to be a value-added component on their phones, That is, by including the apps with the phones, Sprint calculates that they sell more phones than without the apps. Otherwise, if not competitive, what reason would Sprint have to include them at all? Clearly, Sprint feels that they make more money including the apps than excluding them. (And, I suspect, they're probably right, because they're still including them). So, yes, in that sense, it is revenue for Sprint. Is it big enough to make an impact on my bill? No clue. But, if you don't think Sprint at least thinks there is a financial benefit to them by including them on the phones, then I'm not the only crazy one here.

As to 2, I'm not convinced that there are really that many people who can't add an application to their phone because the NASCAR app is burned into ROM. Not saying there aren't ANY people, just saying that I don't think there are sufficient numbers to warrant such an outcry.


"Allowed" is not the proper word here. "Able" maybe, but you're talking about a warranty voiding, potentially phone bricking procedure. It's not the same thing.

Yes, they sell more phones with the apps than not, though I suspect with the NASCAR app it's more along the lines of something that's cheap and basically a "we may as well" type thing. Either way that's a matter of getting/retaining customers. That really has nothing to do with the matter at hand which is that once we have the phone we should be able to to remove the apps we dont want. Sprint isn't losing money on me if I gid rid of an app I don't want. Liikewise, if I like weather bug I should be able to delete HTC's weather stuff. HTC added some other apps in the market that I chose to use (Battery Meter) and I don't see why everything can't be done that way.The fact that we can replace the OS with a ROM cobbled together by 3 15 year olds that don't guarantee anything, is not only not a reasonable solution to such a minor issue, it's really no solution.

Also, I think "outcry" is overstating the situation a bit. Most people want it gone just because they feel they should be able. I doubt there will be any picketers outside sprint HQ over this. I mainly want it done this way because getting core os updates straight/straigher from google, and having everything that's possible be updated individually is really the only possible way I see Android being sustainable, even in the relatively short term, let alone in the long term.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

jturnbow wrote:

If the stock radio was not changeable, or if by changing it that would void the vehicle warranty like rooting does, or it caused hits to the cars performance as it turns itself on without user intent and uses limited resources like these apps do, or it came on every time you started your car like these apps do and used said limited resources, I guarantee there would be outrage and conniptions.

This is why people get worked up with this junk on computers and cell phones and not cars etc. If Dell wants to add the AOL icon to the desktop fine. If they cut a deal with AOL and it makes the computer cheaper fine. If it turns on or pops up every time I boot my computer, if it runs in the background and slows down my computer and I can't change this or if I could never uninstall the stuff without voiding my warranty I'd not like that.  I've built PC's with the same specs, and some times less, as my buddies Dell's. The performance difference is tremendous. The free Norton, Dell utilities, AOL, Spy watch etc. etc. tend to slow his computer to a crawl. And he has a nice set up...on paper anyway. He paid for performance that he isn't getting. And he has no idea how to remove all of that stuff. He comes to me. Though in the last couple of years Dell's have gotten better at this being a simple uninstall. Before that, stuff like realnetworks and Norton were almost impossible to get off of your system once it was on. I'm a Mac guy for this very reason. I'll also be a Nexus One guy when it drops for Sprint for the same reasons.

Yeah, but which Sprint apps load and run by themselves? Not Nav, NFL, NASCAR. Do any? I know Peep seems to run by itself, but that's not Sprint, that's HTC.

I don't disagree with you if things start and run at random, and/or cause problems even if you do nothing with them. But, I don't think Sprint is guilty of this. At worst, they're putting (small) applications on your phone (like HTC does, Google does, etc.) that you can't delete. GMail can't be deleted, I don't use it, but no one seems to be upset with Google. Likewise for the HTC stuff.

I mean, you could go on and on with this like of reasoning. Why stop at the application layer? I don't use bluetooth, shouldn't I have a way to recover the memory used  by the code for it? Cobble together a minimalist kernel that only includes the things that I want/use? At some point, you're going to have things on your phone/computer that you don't want or need. Unless it is really causing a problem, a real problem, it seems simple enough to just ignore it. If it does cause a problem, a real problem, then deal with it.

And, really, I don't think the couple of apps that Sprint & HTC include with the phone rises to the level of the stuff that gets included on some PCs. A lot of that stuff ran, could not be disabled, and went so far as to deliberately block other applications from being installed. That's not what's happening here though, I don't think.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

vita10gy wrote:


"Allowed" is not the proper word here. "Able" maybe, but you're talking about a warranty voiding, potentially phone bricking procedure. It's not the same thing.

Yes, they sell more phones with the apps than not, though I suspect with the NASCAR app it's more along the lines of something that's cheap and basically a "we may as well" type thing. Either way that's a matter of getting/retaining customers. That really has nothing to do with the matter at hand which is that once we have the phone we should be able to to remove the apps we dont want. Sprint isn't losing money on me if I gid rid of an app I don't want. Liikewise, if I like weather bug I should be able to delete HTC's weather stuff. HTC added some other apps in the market that I chose to use (Battery Meter) and I don't see why everything can't be done that way.The fact that we can replace the OS with a ROM cobbled together by 3 15 year olds that don't guarantee anything, is not only not a reasonable solution to such a minor issue, it's really no solution.

Also, I think "outcry" is overstating the situation a bit. Most people want it gone just because they feel they should be able. I doubt there will be any picketers outside sprint HQ over this. I mainly want it done this way because getting core os updates straight/straigher from google, and having everything that's possible be updated individually is really the only possible way I see Android being sustainable, even in the relatively short term, let alone in the long term.

lol. Fair enough, "outcry" might be a bit over the top. Although, some people do seem really ticked off that NASCAR is there, almost personally insulted.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, in principle. I think we should have the ability to add/remove apps as we want. I hope that it goes that way down the road. I'm just saying that there are other, more pressing, issues that people can gripe about.

And still, I'm really not sure what licensing agreements Sprint does or does  not have with these entities behind the apps. For all I know, it could  be a condition of licensing the software that they have to put it  someplace where it can't be removed by the user. There may be legitimate, if not popular, reasons for why Sprint did it the way that they did.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Yeah, that's what I was saying earlier. Not only could there be legal reasons, but I kind of doubt sprint could make these updatable on their own, and therefor removable, if they wanted to. Right now their options are pretty much ROM, which needs to be untouchable, or App, which would be available/visible to everyone, though they could probably do some lame thing where it would only run on sprint phones.

Luckily it looks like my prayers might be answered, semi soon. Thanks Jebus.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Savage wrote:

jturnbow wrote:

If the stock radio was not changeable, or if by changing it that would void the vehicle warranty like rooting does, or it caused hits to the cars performance as it turns itself on without user intent and uses limited resources like these apps do, or it came on every time you started your car like these apps do and used said limited resources, I guarantee there would be outrage and conniptions.

This is why people get worked up with this junk on computers and cell phones and not cars etc. If Dell wants to add the AOL icon to the desktop fine. If they cut a deal with AOL and it makes the computer cheaper fine. If it turns on or pops up every time I boot my computer, if it runs in the background and slows down my computer and I can't change this or if I could never uninstall the stuff without voiding my warranty I'd not like that.  I've built PC's with the same specs, and some times less, as my buddies Dell's. The performance difference is tremendous. The free Norton, Dell utilities, AOL, Spy watch etc. etc. tend to slow his computer to a crawl. And he has a nice set up...on paper anyway. He paid for performance that he isn't getting. And he has no idea how to remove all of that stuff. He comes to me. Though in the last couple of years Dell's have gotten better at this being a simple uninstall. Before that, stuff like realnetworks and Norton were almost impossible to get off of your system once it was on. I'm a Mac guy for this very reason. I'll also be a Nexus One guy when it drops for Sprint for the same reasons.

Yeah, but which Sprint apps load and run by themselves? Not Nav, NFL, NASCAR. Do any? I know Peep seems to run by itself, but that's not Sprint, that's HTC.

I don't disagree with you if things start and run at random, and/or cause problems even if you do nothing with them. But, I don't think Sprint is guilty of this. At worst, they're putting (small) applications on your phone (like HTC does, Google does, etc.) that you can't delete. GMail can't be deleted, I don't use it, but no one seems to be upset with Google. Likewise for the HTC stuff.

I mean, you could go on and on with this like of reasoning. Why stop at the application layer? I don't use bluetooth, shouldn't I have a way to recover the memory used  by the code for it? Cobble together a minimalist kernel that only includes the things that I want/use? At some point, you're going to have things on your phone/computer that you don't want or need. Unless it is really causing a problem, a real problem, it seems simple enough to just ignore it. If it does cause a problem, a real problem, then deal with it.

And, really, I don't think the couple of apps that Sprint & HTC include with the phone rises to the level of the stuff that gets included on some PCs. A lot of that stuff ran, could not be disabled, and went so far as to deliberately block other applications from being installed. That's not what's happening here though, I don't think.

Yes, absolutely they load without me saying so. Right now I have two (two)  instances of IM (a Sprint app I never use) and one instance of NFL Live (a Sprint app I never use) plus Peep (I do use and love), messages (even though I have this set to not notify me as I am using another texting app), footprints (which I never use), market, PC synchronization (I don't use and never have) all loading on start without me wanting and taking up at least 10 MB of RAM each. Even when I force close them, they turn back on at some later time and I don't know why. If I didn't run something like Astro that lets me see what's running in the background taking up RAM I would have never known or even guessed that all of those app I never use were launching. Plus all of the apps that I "DO" want to launch at start-up.

So on a phone with a limited amount of RAM this could be a source for lag and sluggishness. The above list doesn't even count several apps that I have installed but don't want launching at start yet they do anyway. At least I can remove them if they become a PITA.

Message was edited by: jturnbow

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

vita10gy wrote:

"Allowed" is not the proper word here. "Able" maybe, but you're talking about a warranty voiding, potentially phone bricking procedure. It's not the same thing.

Yes, they sell more phones with the apps than not, though I suspect with the NASCAR app it's more along the lines of something that's cheap and basically a "we may as well" type thing. Either way that's a matter of getting/retaining customers. That really has nothing to do with the matter at hand which is that once we have the phone we should be able to to remove the apps we dont want. Sprint isn't losing money on me if I gid rid of an app I don't want. Liikewise, if I like weather bug I should be able to delete HTC's weather stuff. HTC added some other apps in the market that I chose to use (Battery Meter) and I don't see why everything can't be done that way.The fact that we can replace the OS with a ROM cobbled together by 3 15 year olds that don't guarantee anything, is not only not a reasonable solution to such a minor issue, it's really no solution.

Also, I think "outcry" is overstating the situation a bit. Most people want it gone just because they feel they should be able. I doubt there will be any picketers outside sprint HQ over this. I mainly want it done this way because getting core os updates straight/straigher from google, and having everything that's possible be updated individually is really the only possible way I see Android being sustainable, even in the relatively short term, let alone in the long term.

I like the wording used for the first part.  I was trying to think of the proper terms to use, and you conveyed it quite well.

The last part is definitely true.  It's annoying; however, I'm not going to trash my Moment because of two or three applications that I can't remove.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Savage wrote:

Yeah, but which Sprint apps load and run by themselves? Not Nav, NFL, NASCAR. Do any? I know Peep seems to run by itself, but that's not Sprint, that's HTC.

I don't disagree with you if things start and run at random, and/or cause problems even if you do nothing with them. But, I don't think Sprint is guilty of this. At worst, they're putting (small) applications on your phone (like HTC does, Google does, etc.) that you can't delete. GMail can't be deleted, I don't use it, but no one seems to be upset with Google. Likewise for the HTC stuff.

I mean, you could go on and on with this like of reasoning. Why stop at the application layer? I don't use bluetooth, shouldn't I have a way to recover the memory used  by the code for it? Cobble together a minimalist kernel that only includes the things that I want/use? At some point, you're going to have things on your phone/computer that you don't want or need. Unless it is really causing a problem, a real problem, it seems simple enough to just ignore it. If it does cause a problem, a real problem, then deal with it.

And, really, I don't think the couple of apps that Sprint & HTC include with the phone rises to the level of the stuff that gets included on some PCs. A lot of that stuff ran, could not be disabled, and went so far as to deliberately block other applications from being installed. That's not what's happening here though, I don't think.

NFL and NASCAR both are autoloaded and I have to manually kill them with a task manager every time I start the phone after powering it off.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

vita10gy wrote:

You like having freedom and lots of options....so you're a mac guy? Does not compute.

I didn't say I was a Mac guy for freedom and options (Though I can run any OS, and by extension any app I choose, and Windows box users can't). I said I was a Mac guy for out of the box no crap or cripple ware that turns a fast, powerful, modern computer into a 1989 486 snail.

For freedom and options (and games) I build my PC's...which I said.

Computes just fine when you look at what was actually said...

Highlighted
Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

Kaze wrote:

Savage wrote:

Yeah, but which Sprint apps load and run by themselves? Not Nav, NFL, NASCAR. Do any? I know Peep seems to run by itself, but that's not Sprint, that's HTC.

I don't disagree with you if things start and run at random, and/or cause problems even if you do nothing with them. But, I don't think Sprint is guilty of this. At worst, they're putting (small) applications on your phone (like HTC does, Google does, etc.) that you can't delete. GMail can't be deleted, I don't use it, but no one seems to be upset with Google. Likewise for the HTC stuff.

I mean, you could go on and on with this like of reasoning. Why stop at the application layer? I don't use bluetooth, shouldn't I have a way to recover the memory used  by the code for it? Cobble together a minimalist kernel that only includes the things that I want/use? At some point, you're going to have things on your phone/computer that you don't want or need. Unless it is really causing a problem, a real problem, it seems simple enough to just ignore it. If it does cause a problem, a real problem, then deal with it.

And, really, I don't think the couple of apps that Sprint & HTC include with the phone rises to the level of the stuff that gets included on some PCs. A lot of that stuff ran, could not be disabled, and went so far as to deliberately block other applications from being installed. That's not what's happening here though, I don't think.

NFL and NASCAR both are autoloaded and I have to manually kill them with a task manager every time I start the phone after powering it off.

I made the mistake of activating the NFL app just to take a look. It now loads every time. I didn't do that with the NASCAR app. I guess it would auto load on my phone too had I ever opened it an activated it just once. Thankfully I didn't.

I don't even mind the apps being on my phone if they "must" because of some licencing deal Sprint has. But they certainly shouldn't auto load in the background if I don't want them to.

Journeyman

Re: android 2.1 update

jturnbow wrote:

I made the mistake of activating the NFL app just to take a look. It now loads every time. I didn't do that with the NASCAR app. I guess it would auto load on my phone too had I ever opened it an activated it just once. Thankfully I didn't.

I don't even mind the apps being on my phone if they "must" because of some licencing deal Sprint has. But they certainly shouldn't auto load in the background if I don't want them to.

I've never loaded the apps to my knowledge (now, whether or not my pocket loaded them is a different question) but they autoload in the background for me.  Did that on my Hero and Moment (the former I replaced with the latter because of issues with the software keyboard and my fingers not agreeing).

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