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T-Mo's HSPA "3G" network upgrade beats Sprint's WiMax "4G"

Re: T-Mo's HSPA "3G" network upgrade beats Sprint's WiMax "4G"

KevHersha wrote:

Unlike Sprint, Verizon and AT&T, T-Mobile has no plans for 4G. Because of this fact, many are saying T-Mobile will fold in 2011.

As for Sprint, they have free mobile to mobile, 8 device router built into the HTC EVO 4G, true unlimited data on handsets, free GPS, free VVM, free SFL, and free STV. Hands down, Sprint has the best Android lineup known.

Sprint has empowered the consumer and it will gain them business. Dan has changed the culture at Sprint. The man has it figured out.

Wow, the amount of irrelavent info is astounding.  Let me address your points to prove why they are irrelavent.

First, where is your proof that T-Mobile has NO PLANS for 4G?  Sure, there have been rumors that T-Mobile USA wanted to lease some of the spectrum from Clearwire, but that alleged plan never came to fruition.  T-Mobile USA's parent company (i.e., Deutsche Telekom) has recently questioned the viability of LTE, but it is committed to it (Source: Sept 9, 2009).  In fact, AT&T has done the same...and is post-poning its own rollout of LTE until 2011 or 2012...and is simply happy to upgrade to HSPA+ until it feels investment in LTE is justified.  Given current WiMAX and projected LTE data speeds, T-Mobile (and AT&T) may have been the smartest by investing in HSPA+ now...and post-poning their LTE investment until later.  Only Verizon can prove that wrong, since Sprint and Clearwire are clueless.

Second, every company (i.e., Verizon, T-Mobile, AT&T, MetroPCS, etc) offers free mobile to mobile (M2M).  T-Mobile still offers unlimited data on their handsets.  T-Mobile's HTC HD2 allows users to use that handset as a mobile WiFi hotspot for up to 5 users...ooooo...so 3 friends get left out...who cares?  GPS is free on EVERY network...it's called Google, DUH!    All carriers offer visual voice mail (VVM).  The family locator is actually a NEXTEL application that Sprint has claimed credit for despite Sprint having NOTHING to do with it.  Also, who cares about Sprint TV (STV) since more and more channels are being taken away from the user's basic plan?  Plus, every show can be viewed via Hulu.com or YouTube.com or from the broadcasting company's own website (e.g., ABC.com)...so what difference does it make?  In fact, what's the point of paying for STV given how limited it is anyway?  So those points you made, in my view, are useless.

Third, how has Sprint empowered anyone, least of all the customer, that other service providers have not done?  If anything, Sprint has handcuffed the end-user.  Sprint offers great plans (e.g., Simply Everythign), but doesn't provide decent handsets to take advantage of such rate plans unless you're willing to pay EVEN MORE!  The HTC Evo 4G is a great example: one pays an extra $10/month for essentially no real reason that's provided by Sprint.

Furthermore, the culture at Sprint hasn't changed at all.  Stupid people continue to have C-level positions, HESSE INCLUDED!  Under his reign as CEO, this company has lost more customers than the 3 previous CEOs combined!  The stock price was at $15/share when Hesse took over as CEO...since then it has dropped to $1 and has not gone above $5 $6 during the past 5 years.  How is that a good thing?  In other words, Hesse hasn't figured out a darn thing...except how to tick off us loyal Nextel iDEN users.

Bottom Line:  Your assessment on the matter is completely WRONG!

Message was edited by: quasijedi - corrected the stock price quoted...should have been $6, not $5 as originally posted.

Journeyman

Re: T-Mo's HSPA "3G" network upgrade beats Sprint's WiMax "4G"

As far as T-Mobile's HSPA+ vs. Sprint 4G, we don't take any competition  lightly, and T-Mobile is a formidable competitor. Having said that,  T-Mobile lost more customers than any of the top 4 (including Sprint) in  the first quarter of 2010 (source: RCR Wireless News). They stand at  33.7 million customers to Sprint's 48 million. T-Mobile also has the  smallest native network of the major carriers. Their first HSPA+ phone  is due out in September, at which point Sprint will have both the EVO  and the Samsung Epic, and a third 4G phone will probably not be too far  behind.

The speed competition will be fierce and ongoing. Luckily, Sprint/Clearwire will have the greatest bandwidth to increase both capacity and speed as we go forward into 2011 and 2012. Meantime, I haven't seen a lot of complaints about the EVO's speed, except the speed at which HTC has been able to build and ship more of them.

A couple of corrections:

Sprint stock was over $5/share as recently as May. The market as a whole hasn't done well this summer, but I'm guessing we'll be back over $5 very soon. Stock chart here. Also looking at the chart, you'll see that the stock wasn't quite at $15 when Hesse took over at the end of 2007. It certainly plunged in mid-2008, but switch to the Dow Jones Industrial Average chart and you'll see it perfectly mirrored the financial crisis and ensuing recession. (Better yet, look at Apple's stock plunge in mid-2008 and tell me what they did wrong.)

Despite your repeated name-calling of Hesse and his leaders ("stupid" in this case), independent sources see Sprint as being on the right track. Sprint made the largest two-year improvement in customer satisfaction, across all  industries, according to the latest American Customer Satisfaction Index results. Since Mr. Hesse has been the CEO of Sprint for 2 1/2 years, that gave him the incredible stretch of six months before he got things going in the right direction, customer satisfaction-wise.

Message was edited by: racqueteer1

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Journeyman

Re: T-Mo's HSPA "3G" network upgrade beats Sprint's WiMax "4G"

re: "Despite your repeated name-calling of Hesse and his leaders ("stupid" in this case), independent sources see Sprint as being on the right track. Sprint made the largest two-year improvement in customer satisfaction, across all  industries, according to the latest American Customer Satisfaction Index results. Since Mr. Hesse has been the CEO of Sprint for 2 1/2 years, that gave him the incredible stretch of six months before he got things going in the right direction, customer satisfaction-wise."

This might be true for legacy Sprint customers, but what you completely fail to grasp is this: Even this "improved" level of customer service that Sprint recently achieved is way, way, way, way, WAY below what we were accustomed to with the former Nextel.

Several posters to BAW have basically said to people like QJ, me, and other former or current Nextel customers, "If you hate Sprint so much, why don't you just leave?" To which I reply: NO, why doesn't SPRINT leave?

We were perfectly happy as Nextel customers before Sprint came along to suck up all the spectrum that Nextel owned. We never wanted Sprint to take over Nextel in the first place, we have been completely miserable here since Sprint has taken over and absolutely crushed Nextel's huevos, and we have literally begged and pleaded for YEARS that Sprint sell Nextel, so we CAN leave Sprint.

So you can trot out your "customer service numbers" all you want, and pat yourself on the back all you want, and praise Dan Hesse all you want, but what you have absolutely no clue about, is what REAL customer service is, because Yyou know absolutely nothing about the former Nextel.

Since you are obviously a management mouthpiece and you can't stand to hear the unvarnished truth about the complete lack of Nextel-like customer service from us, why don't you put your energies into talking with Dan Hesse on our behalf and ask him to sell Nextel to NIHD? We (by "we I mean Sprint management and Nextel customers) would all be much happier, and we (people like me, QJ, N9NRA, others) could then disengage from Community forever. The only reason we hang in here is to TRY to keep Sprint honest when t tcomes to the way we Nextel customers are treated.  So, for the umpteenth time, PLEASE TELL DAN TO SELL NEXTEL TO NIHD SO WE CAN DEPART SPRINT, AND THE COMMUNITY WEBSITE FOREVER. We would like nothing more, believe us. Sprint is an ungodly waste of time, while Nextel is worth the fight.

Will I leave Nextel? No. Will I leave Sprint? In a nanosecond, as long as I can keep my Nextel service with any other company besides Sprint.

  - Nxtl4me

EDIT: To reinforce my points above about why we some of us keep fighting for the old Nextel Way, here is an excerpt from a brand-new post just made moments ago by brahh: http://community.sprint.com/baw/message/190875#190875

"My husband and I had been with Nextel for years...before people had even heard of Nextel. It was the only cell phone company we had used. We loved the talk quality, and couldn't find anything to compare....

and:

...It has hurt me to see how Sprint has almost killed Nextel. I was always so proud to carry my Nextel, and there was good reason to be proud. Nextel was the best. You paid extra for the phones and the packages. But, Sprint, in my opinion, hasn't handled Nextel wisely. It's a phone that large businesses use and need. It has a place in the cell phone/direct connect market. So, why has Sprint reduced them to "Boost"!!! So sad!!!"

So, racqueteer1, since you don't like the way QJ and I say it, what do you have to say to brahh's posting?

Believe me, QJ and I are merely the tip of the iceberg. Just ask the 5,000,000 (yes, that's FIVE MILLION) formerly happy, loyal post-paid NEXTEL users that have departed since Sprint took over and trashed the Nextel side of the business. If you still think me and QJ are just the "pain in the arse fringe subscribers", then you are just plain blind. As I stated to you before, you ignore the loyal, articulate, passionate, caring Nextel customers at your peril.

Message was edited by: Nxtl4me

Re: T-Mo's HSPA "3G" network upgrade beats Sprint's WiMax "4G"

racqueteer1 wrote:

As far as T-Mobile's HSPA+ vs. Sprint 4G, we don't take any competition  lightly, and T-Mobile is a formidable competitor. Having said that,  T-Mobile lost more customers than any of the top 4 (including Sprint) in  the first quarter of 2010 (source: RCR Wireless News). They stand at  33.7 million customers to Sprint's 48 million. T-Mobile also has the  smallest native network of the major carriers. Their first HSPA+ phone  is due out in September, at which point Sprint will have both the EVO  and the Samsung Epic, and a third 4G phone will probably not be too far  behind.

The speed competition will be fierce and ongoing. Luckily, Sprint/Clearwire will have the greatest bandwidth to increase both capacity and speed as we go forward into 2011 and 2012. Meantime, I haven't seen a lot of complaints about the EVO's speed, except the speed at which HTC has been able to build and ship more of them.

A couple of corrections:

Sprint stock was over $5/share as recently as May. The market as a whole hasn't done well this summer, but I'm guessing we'll be back over $5 very soon. Stock chart here. Also looking at the chart, you'll see that the stock wasn't quite at $15 when Hesse took over at the end of 2007. It certainly plunged in mid-2008, but switch to the Dow Jones Industrial Average chart and you'll see it perfectly mirrored the financial crisis and ensuing recession. (Better yet, look at Apple's stock plunge in mid-2008 and tell me what they did wrong.)

Despite your repeated name-calling of Hesse and his leaders ("stupid" in this case), independent sources see Sprint as being on the right track. Sprint made the largest two-year improvement in customer satisfaction, across all  industries, according to the latest American Customer Satisfaction Index results. Since Mr. Hesse has been the CEO of Sprint for 2 1/2 years, that gave him the incredible stretch of six months before he got things going in the right direction, customer satisfaction-wise.

Message was edited by: racqueteer1

Racqueteer1:

Well, let's see...first of all, T-Mobile only lost a net total of 77,000 in Q1 2010.  SprintNextel lost only 75,000 net subscribers, but that's due to Sprint now being able to officially claim those iPCS subscribers that they didn't have previously.  So if you take away the 400K former iPCS users, this company actually LOST 300K net subscriber.  Honestly, investors and anyone who is going to quote anything about this company really has to read deeper than the major blurbs.  In the mean time, yes  this company's precious improvements (as I've said elsewhere) in CS are there, BUT despite those improvements, the company is still last of the big 4 in terms of customer service scores.  So the fact remains Sprint's still last, improved or not.

And last I checked, Hesse was in place in 12/2007.  So, in under 3 years, he's caused the stock to drop 90% (and it has floundered since, depending on one's point of view, granted).  The company has lost how many post-paid users since he became CEO?  The company's total subscriber base has gone from 55M when he took over to what again?  How about ARPU, has that gone up under his tenure thus far?  Have we seen revenues go up or even stabilize?

Financially, the MAJOR investment firms that own the majority of this stock are simply waiting with bated breath to see when Hesse announces one of two things: 1) Sprint is filing Chapter 11, or 2) Sprint is going to "merge" with company X.  Every other indicator thus for has been negative.  In the mean time, Mr. Hesse has obviously made the decision to regulate the iDEN network into becoming essentially a pre-paid only network...and the company plan is to simply allow the post-paid side to whither away on its own...and then, once that happens...*POOF*...iDEN can be shut off or sold to the highest bidder.  That is pathetic, and...dare I say...a complete and utter act of cowardice in terms of leaderhip.  Only a coward would decide that having 2 viable brands is too much.  Guess Mr. Hesse really is a coward.  So much for the merging of cultures.  So much for taking the best of both companies.  Mr. Hesse has obviously decided (or the Board of Directors have decided for him) that the future of Nextel is no future...only pre-paid Boost will exist...assuming iDEN can survive.  Cowards to any and all that made that decision and/or are allowing it to happen!

BTW, I've looked at the last 2 years and compared the DOW Jones Industrial Average to that of Verizon, AT&T, and SprintNextel.  Funny how Sprint has NOT followed the overall market during that time at all.   I also took the liberty of including Apple Inc. to the chart.  Funny how Sprint has SERIOUSLY lagged since Hesse took over.  Source: Comparison Chart  Oh...and let's also not forget the recent SELL OFF of shares from the insider holdings (i.e., C-level execs) during the past few months  (see Insider Trading).  Notice that although there were a number of June 30th purchases, look at the LOW volume.  Now compare those shares to the number that were sold off just 2 days earlier: 19637 shares!  That tells me that things are about to get WORSE rather than better.  Could it have anything to do with the initial over boasting of HTC Evo 4G sales, only to later have to correct itself on the actual sales figures since the real numbers were only around 67,000 units?  I don't know, nor do I care.  But I know I'm going to short the living daylights of the stock.

So, since Hesse has had 2 years plus to "turn this ship around", when do we actually start to see REAL results when it comes to the company's financials???

Re: T-Mo's HSPA "3G" network upgrade beats Sprint's WiMax "4G"

Nxtl4me wrote:

Will I leave Nextel? No. Will I leave Sprint? In a nanosecond, as long as I can keep my Nextel service with any other company besides Sprint.

  - Nxtl4me

I think that last statement of yours sums up PERFECTLY what the Nextel iDEN user sentiment has been ever since the merger was finalized.  NOTHING more need ever be said.

But I will add one last thing:  While I would LOVE NII Holdings to take over the Nextel side of this company, I also realize that they will demand 2 things to go along with the takeover of the pre and post-paid iDEN subscriber base as well as the iDEN network: 1) ALL of the original spectrum that Nextel Communications and Nextel Partners brought over in the merger, and 2) Sprint's complete disengagement of Q-chat.  While I believe Sprint has already given up on Q-chat, I also know that Sprint will NEVER give up the precious spectrum that Nextel had...and that includes the 2.5Ghz "WiMAX" spectrum as well as the 1.9Ghz spectrum...which we know, as I said, Sprint will NEVER allow.

Journeyman

Re: T-Mo's HSPA "3G" network upgrade beats Sprint's WiMax "4G"

KevHersha said: "Unlike Sprint, Verizon and AT&T, T-Mobile has no plans for 4G. Because of this fact, many are saying T-Mobile will fold in 2011."

You are still missing the point. If T-Mo's HSPA+ "3G" upgrade is already faster than Sprint/Clear's "4G", why on earth would T-Mo need to do anything more than finish upgrading to HSPA+ throughout their network? If their 3G upgrade is already better, why bother with 4G right now? Can it be stated any more simply than that?

It would be illogical for T-Mo to go to the expense and hassle of building out 4G if indeed their HSPA+ upgrade is ALREADY FASTER THAN SPRINT'S 4G.  Given that multiple independent sources have published data showing clearly that at this time, in the few markets tested, it iseems to be a fact that T-Mo's HSPA+ is ALREADY FASTER THAN SPRINT'S 4G.

Now, if the balance shifts and VZ and ATT's upcoming LTE leapfrogs T-Mo's HSPA+ performance, or if Sprint/Clear upgrade to LTE or juice up their WiMax to the point that T-Mo's HSPA+ network is inadequate, then it might make sense at that time for T-Mo to upgrade to 4G. But, again, if right now their HSPA+ is better than Sprint/Clear's 4G, then indeed Sprint/Clear have lost their bragging rights, and there is currently no business reason for T-Mo to go the expense of "4G". Simple as that.

But look at it another way, too. With the old dial-up modems we used to have to connect to the internet several years ago, the performance was just too slow to be very useful, hence the market responded with today's DSL and cable modems for home internet connection, most homeowners (and small businesses) now have DSL or cable for their ISP, and that speed is generally considered to be perfectly adequate for 90% of home users and small businesses. So why would any homeowner or small business-person with a DSL or cable modem that is essentially satisfied with the current connection speeds go to the expense of  upgrading to the next step up, which would be a T1.5 or even a T10 class of connection? The answer is, they wouldn't, because their current DSL operating roughly at T1 speeds is GOOD ENOUGH. Analogously, if T-Mo's HSPA+ speeds are good enough to satisfy 90% of their subscribers, and their performance is equal to or even better than the competition's performance, why should they upgrade to 4G? Where's the value in that, if 3G HSPA+ is good enough to satisfy the 90%? Just so they can use the term "4G" in their ads? Why not just let the actual prformance data speak for itself?

Yes, Sprint & Clear have a lot of potential, but the realization of potential requires spot-on execution, something which Sprint historically has been unable to do.

Yes, Sprint has made significant contributions to the competitiveness of the US wireless industry with a number of their game-changing plans recently, and for that we have consistently given Sprint the credit it is due.

Yes, Sprint has reportedly improved its customer-service ranking in the last several quarters, and for that we do give Sprint credit, and as a customer  I am grateful that there has been an improvement. But again, as Sprint CS exists today it is still nownere near as good as the former Nextel's CS. One could reasonably argue that Sprint's significant improvement in CS rankings were fairly easy to accomplish, for the simple mathematical reason that because their numbers were so terribly, terribly low before that, statistically it is relatively easy to show big improvements. It's like the truism that when you're starting from the bottom, 20% of the effort gets you 80% of the way to the goal, but achieving that last 20% to get to the top takes 4X or 5X the energy/effort/money/time that it took to get to the 80% mark. In a  word, it becomes asymptotic. Only a fool would assume that the slope of the graph of Sprint's recent improvements in CS will continue at the same slope for the forseeable future.

So, there you have it. I've given Sprint credit where it is due, and reiterated the very simple concept that if T-Mo's current HSPA+ 3G upgrade is already faster than Sprint's "4G", then Sprint, and you, have lost the bragging rights, and further, there is currently not a sound business reason for T-Mo to go to 4G, given that their 3G upgrade already beats Sprint's 3g and 4G network performance.

   - Nxtl4me

Journeyman

Re: T-Mo's HSPA "3G" network upgrade beats Sprint's WiMax "4G"

For those of us in business who rely on a reliable mobile data network like Sprint's, your arguments are soundless and without merit.

Journeyman

Re: T-Mo's HSPA "3G" network upgrade beats Sprint's WiMax "4G"

I think you have an excellent argument that we'll get to the point where the network is "fast enough" for 90%+ of the population. At that point it becomes about spectrum capacity, and that, I think, is where Clearwire & Sprint shine.

I found this article compelling: http://gigaom.com/2010/03/12/clearwires-big-bet-on-our-broadband-addiction/, which contained this quote:

But the biggest advantage is Clearwire’s deep spectrum resources. If nothing else, the last few months has focused the tech world’s attention on the scarcity of available mobile spectrum. Well, Clearwire has a lot of it — about 150 MHz in many markets, while the other major carriers claim just two-thirds or less of that amount.

While T-Mobile isn't mentioned specifically in this article, it seems they're counting on their available spectrum on their current 3G network to be sufficient. But that increased speed takes up bandwidth, and they're already working with the smallest covered area of the Big 4.

Once again, this is all my opinion. I think HSPA+ is worthy competition, but I like where Clearwire & Sprint sit in the long run.

Re: T-Mo's HSPA "3G" network upgrade beats Sprint's WiMax "4G"

racqueteer1:

Hmmm...sounds like you're talking about potential.  Potential is great when you have no real competition.  In this case, however, Sprint does.  It already has T-Mobile with their entire network already upgraded to 22Mb/s...and a HSPA+ handset due out this fall to take advantage of it...actually, according to Engadget.com, T-Mobile will have 3 handsets by the Xmas holiday.  Sprint, however, will have merely 2 that take avantage of a very sporadic WiMAX network whose coverage is, despite the recent and upcoming forcasted launches, will still be horribly behind that of T-Mobile in terms of coverage.

Now, given the spectrum that is being used, Clearwire will have to build more towers in order to cover the same area as T-Mobile does using their 1.9Ghz GSM spectrum.  And, given how T-Mobile operates, they expand slowly, but do so methodically.  That's why they've become so profitable during the past few years.  Sprint and Clearwire can only hope of being that profitable some day.  Now, could Sprint leapfrog T-mobile in profitability?  Sure...but that's a long ways away.  As I said earlier...it's POTENTIAL!

Then there's AT&T and Verizon...the former of which is expanding and improving its GSM network to deliver similar HSPA+ speeds as T-Mobile over a far larger geographic area, and the latter is already building out their LTE add-ons to 30 of their LARGEST markets!  In those cases, it won't matter if WiMAX is available in more areas since LTE will cover far more populated people.  And Verizon won't have to build out a ton of new towers either, since they'll be using 700Mhz spectrum which propogates brilliantly across long distances and through buildings.  So, while Verizon may not be able to offer 90Mb/s out of the gate with LTE, they are apparently delivering the same 7-10Mb/s download speeds that T-Mobile is doing...and such speeds will be available indoors...which Clearwire's WiMAX will have a hard time delivering, if only because that 2.5Ghz spectrum won't penetrate objects (like buildings) all too well.

I guess, as a customer and investor,  I'd feel much more comfortable with management if Sprint got Clearwire to build out the WiMAX network faster, or at least targeted the largest cities first.  I mean, really...some of the places that it's been deployed thus far makes one scratch their head wondering "Who on earth is going to use WiMAX there?!?  Why not deploy it in Indianapolis, New York City, Los Angeles, New Orleans, Detroit, Pittsburgh, etc."  All that potential...and not to mention that lead in deployment time...and companies like Verizon and T-Mobile are right on Sprint's heels.  That potential is quickly being negated...and that's what makes investors and consumers, like me, feel VERY VERY uneasy.

Bottom Line:

Sprint needs to focus like a laser on 1 of two ideas:

1. Expand their CDMA and iDEN networks to cover greater geographic area

2. Greatly expand their WiMAX coverage in a hurry so that this company can offer greater CDMA/WiMAX and actually introduce an iDEN/WiMAX handsets

So far, this company really isn't doing either one.  And that's not good given T-Mobile's capabilties, let alone Verizon and AT&T's...and they all have far deeper pockets to draw from than does Sprint (and Clearwire, combined).

Journeyman

Re: T-Mo's HSPA "3G" network upgrade beats Sprint's WiMax "4G"

re: "For those of us in business who rely on a reliable mobile data network like Sprint's, your arguments are soundless and without merit."

It's nice that the US economy is so capacious that "for those in business" who are unable to think critically or logically they can still find a niche.

Nobody said that Sprint's CDMA and WiMax networks are not usable, nor did anyone say there is anything wrong with them. The point of the articles cited is that one carrier's "3G upgrade" is faster than Sprint's brand new "4G" network, and because of that Sprint should sit up and take notice and respond intelligently & appropriately to the fact that a lesser competitor just took away their main bragging right and main marketing point.

If you can't grasp that simple fact after having it clearly reiterated for you multiple times, and if you can't read the cited articles in their entirety and garner the information for yourself, there is no point in any further discussion along this line.

   - Nxtl4me